The Kel-Tec Range

cigarman

Title says it all.

This is the part: http://naaminis.com/guardacc.html#parts

Who has done it and how about range report and a pic. I did a search but obviously did not use the correct terms.

pocketgun · Site Admin Joined: 23 May 2005 Posts: 5893

I haven't tried it, but I would guess that it won't work. If you look at the pics of it, the mag retention slot is cut almost even with the 5th round witness hole. On the P3AT mag, the slot is sort of in between the 4th and 5th round witness holes. So my guess is it may fit into the grip, but will not be retained by the mag catch.

P.S. Since the NAA grip is shorter than the P3AT's, the plastic extention would need to be removed or modified as well, or it will prevent the mag from going all the way in.

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: need a better mag

I wish it would fit. I tried a Bersa Thunder 380 mag and it goes into the grip OK, but won't let the slide load a round due to the angle of the top follower tips the round up too high.
A better magazine than the crappy MecGar one would be welcome for the P3AT. I found one KT mag, out of 3 I tried that was made a little tighter and allows the pistol to fire with no sign of a "smiley". Other mags seem made too loose. (See my recent thread, P3AT Analysis, part 1.)
So if someone finds a different brand mag that fits, I'd sure like to know.
Cheers,
og

Pointpro · New Member Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 16 Location: S.C.

crappy mecgar mags! My AT came with one bought two more they work perfect, don't see what the problem could be unless you just wanted 10 rounders.

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: ur lucky!

'pro,
have you tried any of the "Smiley" tests? Or do you even know what it is or how to do it with only 13 posts?
Maybe spend some time reading the old Smiley threads in the Modification forum before jumping to conclusions.
If you compare MecGar with other brands of magazines you'll find it is a very cheap magazine with narrow "ears", plastic follower, super slippery paint coating, some mags looser than others, not much quality control all which add to the chance of getting "smileys", setback, and increased chamber pressure.
The jury is still out whether it's a big problem or not. But even a small smiley produces "setback". Especially with some of the lower cost "value pack" ammo out there that don't crimp the bullets tightly.
Since the barrel of the P3AT is made to save weight, it has a very low "safety factor", like only 1.5. A setback round is gonna raise the chamber pressure, maybe not enough to rupture the barrel, but certainly raise the stress in the steel.
There is also a thing in engineering known as metal fatigue which is a function of stress, worse when the safety factor is low. After time a crack could (I didn't say would) develop.
Hope you don't think I'm being a smartaxx, but been to college, and supervised a met lab for NASA before retirement. I might be old but I'm not stupid.
Yes, the MecGar mags work fine loading, cycling ammo, etc. in the P3AT. It's the hidden problem that can bite you.
Good luck,
og....which can also mean oldgrump, oldgeezer, whatever Rolling Eyes

(several of us on an old Beretta forum had a nasty problem with MecGar mags in a .32acp Tomcat, due to the "ears" being too short. The last round would "spit" out of the breech before chambering. Beretta wouldn't help us or even answer our complaints. Finally just traded the Tomcat. So my experience with the P3AT is not the first bad experience with MecGar.)

Volt · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject:

Concerning magazines; are there any other makes of magazines that will fit the P3AT?

I would like to find a magazine that does not have as deep of a cutout in the front. I am convinced that the magazine is one part of major design problem with the P3AT.

Volt · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject:

Concerning magazines; are there any other makes of magazines that will fit the P3AT?

I would like to find a magazine that does not have as deep of a cutout in the front. I am convinced that the magazine is one part of major design problem with the P3AT.

Kitsap Charly

I have one on order in hopes it WILL fit. Shocked

I do hope so. Maybe a little filing in the right place. Confused

I'll write the results. It'll work won't it? Exclamation

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: good show!!

hey guys,
keep up the search!! good work!! glad to know I'm not alone with concerns about the P3AT magazine.
Here's a picture of my recent test. The round nose (Speer) was second round in the magazine and the flat nose (Win ValuPack) was last round in the magazine. All rounds were micrometer checked for OAL before and after the test. Even with a light hit, the cheap Win valupac shows setback.
Only 1 magazine of the 3 was made tight enough that I didn't modify it with punch marks as shown on the other 2. This shows that MecGar has lousy quality control.
The heavy modified mag was the one that came with my P3AT and had the deep smileys shown in my thread about the 2dGen Analysis Part 1. Check there for those pictures.

Hope to hear soon that you found a better magazine to fit.

Cheers,
og

Kitsap Charly

I got the idea from something I read on the other site one day recently. When I went to reread it the next day I couldn't find it among all the articles but if I remember right it said the slot for the magazine catch didn't quite line up but was close and with a little filing it worked.
I'd like the 10-round magazine partly for capacity but also because it would let me get a better grip on the gun for better shooting. I think I might be able to carry it with this mag on in the watch pocket of my George Foreman jeans which is usually what I wear. It'll probably print out too much when carried in the pocket holster or the belt clip but experimenting will tell. It's worth a try. Smile

Maybe I'll get lucky!

cigarman · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:44 am Post subject:

Well gentlemen, let me do a counterpoint here.

Some revered and high quality pistols, such as CZs have their mags made by Mec-Gar. Many SIG owners swear by them and I have never had any problems with them in any pistol (no data on the PAT as yet, of course).

If there is a problem here then it may be insome way related to variability in the size of the ammo itself or the magazine/gun design. If you go to other forums such as the CZ or SIG forum, you will see few, if any complaints about Mec-Gars.

norfdet · Guest

I agree with Cigarman, if you want magazine problems get USA mags or something similiar. I have not had any problems with Mecgar mags in my AT or in any other pistol that I have used them in. I have had MANY, MANY problems with USA mags in a Smith and Wesson. The advertised magazine did not even fit in the magazine well of the pistol that I bought it for.

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: true!

yes, true, but if you'll compare you'll see that MecGar mags for other brands of guns are a different style, some with metal followers, some even bare metal, etc. And most of those pistols are either blowback or with a different mechanism that does not allow the feed ramp to come near the rounds in the mag until they are being chambered.
My complaint is right now about the P3AT mag which is cheaply made compared to mags made by others. Hold it side by side with a Bersa mag and you can see the difference, wider ears on the Bersa that grab the cartridge better and provide more friction.
BTW, I also remember having probs with a MecGar I got for my 1911 Springfield several years ago. The last round would FTF with it due to the lack of the little dimple that Browning put on the original mag to slow the timing.
Go figure. Whatever.
To each his own.
Sorry if I've yanked anybody's chain.
Just showing that it ain't all perfect, sure the mag works with no FTF, but the smileys are still there unless you're lucky and get a mag made tighter than the original one I got.
OK, I'll shut up about MecGar. Go test your P3AT doing the smiley test correctly and see what you get. Measure OAL before and after and see if any setback. If you've got a chrono, please do that and report the results to prove me wrong. Volt has done some preliminary work.
And, of course, remember...you can't do the smiley test by hand cycling the pistol. It has to be fired to get the impact and then look at the next round that was chambered after firing.
Let us know.
Cheers,
og....who ain't no "know-it-all", I'm here to learn too cheers

cigarman · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:21 am Post subject:

No sweat OG, just having conversation.

Your comments lend credibility to my idea that it is mag design that is the contributing factor. I don't doubt your views one iota--there is a different level of performance from different mags from your view.

I think an e-mail to Megar with a reference to this thread would be in order. Maybe they will take heed and look into the problem.

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: many thanks!

cig'
thank you, sir, I really appreciate that you started this thread. Very important subject. Gave me a chance to "air my guts".
Hope it opens a search for not only a 10 rounder, but a better mag altogether.

Sure glad you're back here on the "Range"

og

cigarman · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject:

I sent the following e-mail to Mecgar Customer Service:

Gentlemen,

I have a good number of semi-automatic pistols of different types and many Megar magazines that I use in them with great satisfaction.

Recently I acquired a Kel-Tek P-3AT (second generation model) and was surprised to find comments on one of the forums about the quality control with the Mecgar magazines for this pistol.

As I said, I have been very pleased with my Mecgar mags and wondered if you could comment on these concerns:

http://ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=47328#47328

Thank you,

Bill
Hershey, PA
USA

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: another picture

Maybe this picture will help explain what is happening. With a "loose" magazine, like the first one I got, the top round gets pushed forward over the mag lip when the slide is cycled. This round then is subject to a smiley hit when the gun is fired. The reason for this was fully explained over a year ago in the Mod Section Smiley Philosophy thread. If you get a "tight" mag the round stays in place or moves very little. The only way I've found to tighten up a "loose" mag is punch the sides at the back end. I use a spent cartridge inside to act as an anvil or else you'll cave in the mag. Even that doesn't always cure it and squeezing the rear end in a vise is sometimes needed which may ruin it.
Try the test yourself by cycling the slide, remove the mag and see if the top round moved forward. If more than about 1/32" then it will probably get hit.
Some ammo is more subject to this than other due to the difference in OverAllLength. The following list shows some ammo.
OAL of some .380acp cartridges

Rem UMC 95gr round nose .969"
Speer Lawman 95g round .965"
Win ValPak flat nose .950"
Win ST 85gr .945"
Rem GS 102gr .946"
Fed HS PD 90gr .948"
Speer GD 90gr .945"

FWIW,
og

Oh, you can do the test in your house, no need to fire the pistol to see if the round moves. But smileys show up only when firing due to the impact needed.

C1skout · New Member Joined: 08 Jan 2006 Posts: 3

This post got me thinking so I just went and tried a colt government 380 7rnd mag for fit in my P3at. When inserted in the well it clicked right into place, but too low to chamber a round. I looked closer and found that if I held the catch in the mag would slide into the gun a little farther. I loaded a snap-cap into the mag and put it into the P3at (holding it up in position with my 3rd finger), pulled the slide back and let it go and the round (snap-cap) cycled right in. Pulled the slide again and the round ejected and the slide locked back.
These mags hold the top round at very different angles, it would be interesting to see how one would perform if someone were to cut a new (lower) slot for the mag catch. But then again since there is no slide lock on the gun mabye a different mag style would make a better starting point for a tinkerer.

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: good on you!

C1skout,

excellent work! keep up the fine posting.

and welcome to KTRange!

og

Oh, and p.s.
be sure to check in on Midiman's new member thread in the admin section so he will be happy.

TxCajun · Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:19 am Post subject:

CM:

Astoundingly, the answer is yes. Although possibly functional, it ain't necessarily purdy.
More pics and discussion here:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1106252802

pocketgun · Site Admin Joined: 23 May 2005 Posts: 5893

cigarman · Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:13 am Post subject:

I'm going to have to check this out further, just like a 20 rounder for a SIG, this has possibilities as a range mag.

More, more...

oldgranpa · Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: wonderful!!

tx,
thank you so much for that!! wonderful news!

Somebody, please test it and let us know the details. Like any little mods needed to make it work.

Also how to order one.

og.....getting excited about this!! Very Happy

Pointpro · New Member Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 16 Location: S.C.

OG, I will agreed with most of the things you said. I do know what smilies,setback and a loose mag is, have so for years, but I still read the threads. As for my 13 post I don't chime in alot only when I have something to say. Was only trying to say that IMO the mags that I have has not given me a problem yet. And if they do I will surely be here looking for some help.

oldgranpa · Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: good info!

thanks, 'pro,

your info is valuable and adds to the data base that all MecGars are not alike. Over in byron's smile thread, he obviously has one of the real tight magazines. Wish all of them were like that. I got a loose one and it pixxed me off so I posted all this hot air.

Cheers,
og

markster · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:11 am Post subject:

Hey OG, I wouldn't call the Mec-Gar magazines cheap but maybe they didn't get all the required testing and aren't engineered up to standards to prevent setback. All my mags work great but I am going to check for setback and report back.

markster · Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:19 am Post subject:

I had some problems with the ears on magazines being too tight for my Browning HP 9MM. I had to bend them out a little so they would feed reliably, this lets the bullet ride higher in the mag so it will chamber. The only marking on the mags is a stamping "Browning HP 9mm". I also have two Mec-Gar mags for the gun and never had a problem with those.